Monday, April 3, 2017

Dialogue with I'm Skeptical of the Skeptic Zone Blog.

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College Debaters U.Iowa






This began as a discussion about grounding moral axioms then Skep pulled teh question begging trick atheists have been known to deploy, "there's no God so" arguments for God are moot.

http://theskepticzone.blogspot.com/2017/03/the-grounding-of-morality.html


 Skep
Joe, it's time to be a little more honest, and a little less arrogant. You DON'T know what you claim.

you need to stop assuming you know e everything you do not know what I experienced,

You have a feeling inside, and that's the basis for your claims of certain knowledge.

Joe
No. It is not just a feeling inside, you knw nothing about it not the first thing.Your cynicism leads you to think you can judge the truthofexperiences you have not had.

Skep
We've been over this before. This feeling is something we all have, to one degree or another.

Joe
nope that is just your only means of dismissing it, I used to think too before I had it.

Skep
But some of us realize that it's a human emotion, and not necessarily the presence of God that we feel.

Joe
You assume so because you don't want to obey God. the truth is you have no idea what you are talking about,you are just clutching at straws and making uninformed assumptions because you have no other ansser,,

Skep
Others ascribe this feeling to the beliefs that they have been indoctrinated with since they were babies. You don't know the difference between subjective feelings and objective knowledge. Time to grow up.

Joe
I disprove that statement in the book with empirical data.First of all I was not indoctrinated into any belief in feelings,I grew up in the Christi of Christ, we denied feelings. We were taught that feelings didn't matter and all that did matter was objective data and exegesis.

That fits with the data from my research because most people who have mystical pertinence find that part of it contradicts cherished doctrine,so that disproves your nonsense that it's conditioned by teaching.

Secondly your understanding of objectivity is pathetic, because clinging to it as a shelf to protect you from angry God is nothing but what C Wright Mills called 'hiding behind the cloak of objectivity."you are stuck in the subject/object dichotomy.That is an outmoded way of looking at truth.





Joe HinmanApril 1, 2017 at 1:25 AM
It's a real fallacy in your thinking to suppose that the whole edifice of belief can be based upon one experience or one set of little feelings. The journey from atheism to belief is a a paradigm shift and those only happen when the former paradigm can no longer adsorb the anomalies. So the shift is made up of thousands of little anomalies.Those can be feelings, experiences, or facts, or arguments and probably all of the above. There are arguments and assumptions that are as important as road sings for me as the feelings of mystical experience that I speak about. It all comes together to from a life. The direction of the life has been moving toward knowing God.
Joe HinmanApril 2, 2017 at 11:29 PM

No. It is not just a feeling inside, you knw nothing about it not the first thing.Your cynicism leads you to think you can judge the truthofexperiences you have not had.


Skep- Sorry, but there are plenty of ex-Christians who know EXACTLY what you're talking about. Not to mention those studies you love to cite. They all tell us that this is a common HNUMAN experience.

Joe: Do you not get the concept of begging the question? If you have to have a spacial experience to know something just saying you had it does not prove you did. yes there are atheists who did not really understand and were not born again so no surprise they fell away, then they assert that it was nothing because it was nothing to them. That is not proof.

this is why the M scale matters. It proves what a mystical experience is. you have no example of an atheist who scored high on the M scale and verifies your argument.

You assume so because you don't want to obey God. the truth is you have no idea what you are talking about,you are just clutching at straws and making uninformed assumptions because you have no other ansser

Skep- You're the one who ignores the information available to all of us, if we care to listen.

Joe: That is horse shit! i spent seven years researched evidence you wont touch, you wont try to read one study with an open mind and I researched 200 studies.

I grew up in the Christi of Christ, we denied feelings. We were taught that feelings didn't matter and all that did matter was objective data and exegesis.

Skep- So, you think that's what they teach young atheists, huh? Bullshit. Feelings don't matter?. Joe, your view is distorted.

Joe: Get a grip.Of course i don;t think they sit atheists down and says "now be afraid of feelings." But there are ways to communicate fear,without saying it overtly.

Not all atheists fear feelings. But there are tons of atheists who are afraid of any kind of feelings. I've debated thousands,I've done over a million posts on the net in 16 years and that's thousands of opponents. stop the Bull shit, you can't con me, I was an atheist weather you like it or not and I've argued with thousands of them.

Feelings are very much part of the human experience. The difference between you and me is that I recognize the difference between subjective and objective.

No you don;t you are laboring under a false understanding of the subject object dichotomy. Your refusal to understand how scientific method can get around the subjectivity barrier in study of experience that shows you are afraid to think feelings. You are hiding behind the cloak of objectivity, it;s a smoke screen for your subjective likes and dislikes.



Skep- The only thing I'm afraid of is people who use their bullshit to re-make reality for the rest of us.

Joe: that's why we use an empirical scale in the study of mystical experience you are the one who is using emotions and feelings like your anger toward God as a basis for your position then using the mask of the objective as a smoke screen to hide the emotional basis of yor view.

It's a real fallacy in your thinking to suppose that the whole edifice of belief can be based upon one experience or one set of little feelings.


Skep- That's your claim, not mine. You're the one who keeps going on about this "experience" that I supposedly know nothing about.


Joe: Bottom line: I have 200 studies you do not have a single study that disproves anything I say. you try to muddle and distort the they way I use the studies and their value to counter My argument because you have no empirical basis for answering it.

all your brave talk about objectivity is just hot air. you are not objective about belief in God.







































Joe HinmanApril 1, 2017 at 1:12 AM
Joe, it's time to be a little more honest, and a little less arrogant. You DON'T know what you claim.

you need to stop assuming you know e everything you do not know what I experienced,

You have a feeling inside, and that's the basis for your claims of certain knowledge.

No. It is not just a feeling inside, you knw nothing about it not the first thing.Your cynicism leads you to think you can judge the truthofexperiences you have not had.


We've been over this before. This feeling is something we all have, to one degree or another.

nope that is just your only means of dismissing it, I used to think too before I had it.

But some of us realize that it's a human emotion, and not necessarily the presence of God that we feel.

You assume so because you don't want to obey God. the truth is you have no idea what you are talking about,you are just clutching at straws and making uninformed assumptions because you have no other ansser,,

Others ascribe this feeling to the beliefs that they have been indoctrinated with since they were babies. You don't know the difference between subjective feelings and objective knowledge. Time to grow up.

I disprove that statement in the book with empirical data.First of all I was not indoctrinated into any belief in feelings,I grew up in the Christi of Christ, we denied feelings. We were taught that feelings didn't matter and all that did matter was objective data and exegesis.

That fits with the data from my research because most people who have mystical pertinence find that part of it contradicts cherished doctrine,so that disproves your nonsense that it's conditioned by teaching.

Secondly your understanding of objectivity is pathetic, because clinging to it as a shelf to protect you from angry God is nothing but what C Wright Mills called 'hiding behind the cloak of objectivity."you are stuck in the subject/object dichotomy.That is an outmoded way of looking at truth.

Reply
ReplyDelete

Joe HinmanApril 1, 2017 at 1:14 AM
you are afraid of your feelings.
ReplyDelete

Joe HinmanApril 1, 2017 at 1:25 AM
It's a real fallacy in your thinking to suppose that the whole edifice of belief can be based upon one experience or one set of little feelings. The journey from atheism to belief is a a paradigm shift and those only happen when the former paradigm can no longer adsorb the anomalies. So the shift is made up of thousands of little anomalies.Those can be feelings, experiences, or facts, or arguments and probably all of the above. There are arguments and assumptions that are as important as road sings for me as the feelings of mystical experience that I speak about. It all comes together to from a life. The direction of the life has been moving toward knowing God.
Joe HinmanApril 2, 2017 at 11:29 PM

No. It is not just a feeling inside, you knw nothing about it not the first thing.Your cynicism leads you to think you can judge the truthofexperiences you have not had.
- Sorry, but there are plenty of ex-Christians who know EXACTLY what you're talking about. Not to mention those studies you love to cite. They all tell us that this is a common HNUMAN experience.

Do you not get the concept of begging the question? If you have to have a spacial experience to know something just saying you had it does not prove you did. yes there are atheists who did not really understand and were not born again so no surprise they fell away, then they assert that it was nothing because it was nothing to them. That is not proof.

this is why the M scale matters. It proves what a mystical experience is. you have no example of an atheist who scored high on the M scale and verifies your argument.

You assume so because you don't want to obey God. the truth is you have no idea what you are talking about,you are just clutching at straws and making uninformed assumptions because you have no other ansser

- You're the one who ignores the information available to all of us, if we care to listen.

That is horse shit! i spe t seven years researched evidence you wont touch, you wont try to read one study with an open mind and I researched 200 studies.

I grew up in the Christi of Christ, we denied feelings. We were taught that feelings didn't matter and all that did matter was objective data and exegesis.

- So, you think that's what they teach young atheists, huh? Bullshit. Feelings don't matter?. Joe, your view is distorted.

Get a grip.Of course i don;t think they sit atheists down and says "now be afraid of feelings." But there are ways to communicate fear,without saying it overtly.

Not all atheists fear feelings. But there are tons of atheists who are afraid of any kind of feelings. I've debated thousands,I've done over a million posts on the net in 16 years and that's thousands of opponents. stop the Bull shit, you can't con me, I was an atheist weather you like it or not and I've argued with thousands of them.

Feelings are very much part of the human experience. The difference between you and me is that I recognize the difference between subjective and objective.

No you don;t you are laboring under a false understanding of the subject object dichotomy. Your refusal to understand how scientific method can get around the subjectivity barrier in study of experience that shows you are afraid to think feelings. You are hiding behind the cloak of objectivity, it;s a smoke screen for your subjective likes and dislikes.



- The only thing I'm afraid of is people who use their bullshit to re-make reality for the rest of us.

that's why we use an empirical scale in the study of mystical experience you are the one who is using emotions and feelings like your anger toward God as a basis for your position then using the mask of the objective as a smoke screen to hide the emotional basis of yor view.

It's a real fallacy in your thinking to suppose that the whole edifice of belief can be based upon one experience or one set of little feelings.
- That's your claim, not mine. You're the one who keeps going on about this "experience" that I supposedly know nothing about.


Bottom line: I have 200 studies you do not have a single study that disproves anything I say. you try to muddle and distort the they way I use the studies and their value to counter My argument because you have no empirical basis for answering it.

all your brave talk about objectivity is just hot air. you are not objective about belief in God.


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